DMOZ, BOTW, and Beyond
Posted by shadow575 on June 26, 2008
Lately I feel like the spit-bucket boy, accidentally caught in the middle of the ring between to prize fighters. Its not a place thats very comfortable to be in, for sure. Most of the problems IMO are based on mis-conceptions and confusion between the two directories. Some of it is real, but a lot of it is imagined. Here I sit (along with several others) straddling the fence of both worlds and not necessarily feeling at home on either side anymore.
Some (not all) DMOZ editors have a problem with BOTW editors participating on both sides. They have some legitimate concerns, but concerns are not facts and I have seen nothing that justifies the concerns thus far. Contrary to popular belief, its not the highest levels that have the most heated opinions on the subject. Often times its below the Meta level and sometimes it Meta+. There is absolutely nothing wrong IMO with anyone, at any level of DMOZ wanting to contribute at BOTW so long as you are maintaining the ODP Guidelines with regards to actions and communications. This is something that has been stressed at BOTW the entire time, don’t conflict yourself with DMOZ or any other resource you are using to build that directory. As DMOZ editors we need to just let it go, its not threatening our existence and its not stealing our best editors away. In fact, our animosity in a lot of cases is driving the good ones away.
On the flip-side, not all fault lies within DMOZ. Many of us joining BOTW are doing so out of both curiosity and also because of diminished personal satisfaction from editing in DMOZ. Whether its frustration with the direction (or lack there of) of the project, hurt feelings for believing we have been taken for granted, or whatever. I have seen some references to DMOZ being evil or the true bad guys in this. Sometimes I feel like I am viewed as just being a fly on the wall and even though the staff and management have all been extremely sincere at making me feel welcomed, I sometimes feel like the third wheel. Someone who is not really welcome on the playground. I hold no ill will towards anyone on either side, I know that its human nature in a lot of cases like this and perhaps naively believe its not as it seems. I just wish we could all just drop it and move on. Those of us who want and are invited to play in both sandboxes, shouldn’t be getting grief from either side. Nor should we be pressing buttons and taking pot shots back and forth because of it either.
I think we can both co-exist and we should be able to do so and get along at the same time. I have stated this elsewhere, but if someone doesn’t feel I personally still belong on one side or the other by all means let me know and let the management know. If I can’t be trusted to do whats right and whats good, then I don’t deserve to be associated with either side. I hope that I have continued to prove that is not the case and that I won’t stand by idly and allow the integrity of either (any) project suffer because of my actions or inactions.
- I have contributed to DMOZ now for almost 4 years (next month will be my 4th birthday).
- I have over the last couple of years and to my knowledge still can, contribute to JoeAnt.
- I have contributed information and opinions to Resource-Zone and Digital Point (also opposite ends of the spectrum)
- I have contributed to various other forums related to DMOZ and sites.
- I have edited a few minor problems at Wikipedia (although, not enough to remember which ones or where)
- And now I am choosing to give a little time to BOTW.
All of these things are similar in topic and all of them give me a certain amount of personal satisfaction and enjoyment in their own ways. There is no reason to think less of anyone for choosing to participate in one or more of these or any other projects. If you don’t like one, thats fine its your choice and opinion. Feel free to keep it to yourself though, unless its really a concern supported with evidence (such as abuse) and then by all means scream it from the highest mountain. Then send me a message about it, so I can scream it as well. No one wants that and as far as I know, both (all) sides are working hard to combat and remove the results of such actions.
Please be kind and respectful of everyone.
Sue Massey said
I found your blog on google and read a few of your other posts. I just added you to my Google News Reader. Keep up the good work. Look forward to reading more from you in the future.
Rob Jones said
My discussions with BOTW staff have proven they hold ODP in high regard, and IMO, rightfully so. ODP is a forerunner of the industry, and without the training we got there most of the editors would’ve been posting stamps in a book or something for the last decade. They’ve given a lot of people a chance to share their interests with the rest of the world. Those of us that did (or in some cases DO) edit at Dmoz look on our contributions there with pride.
Us vs Them discussions are IMO a waste of time. Far as I know they’re pretty much a one-sided affair, since we don’t do those internally. Heck, the net is big enough for more than one directory. I wish my friends there continued success. They’ve earned it.
Notwithstanding worries about the relative handful that’ve gone from there to here, several exes I’ve tracked down have gone back and hit the reinstate queue there instead of joining here once they got refocused on the topic. Both directories can benefit from a little cross-pollination… a rising tide floats all boats.
Regards ~ Rob
makrhod said
Shadow there’s no reason at all for you (or any other past or present DMOZ editor) to experience any negativity about contributing at BOTW, provided the rules and policies of each directory are being followed, of course.
We are all free to choose our own paths, and you have always been open about your decisions. It is unfortunate if your honesty not respected, reflected, or appreciated by others, but that is a sadly common situation, and nothing at all to do with you.
pvgool said
Shadow, I don’t think there should be any need for hostility between people editing at DMOZ or BOTW or as in some cases at both sites. Like you I have seen some of the remarks made against BOTW. But for me those were just made because a few DMOZ editors didn’t understand the workings of BOTW (the difference between free and payed reviews). They thought editors would switch because of the money they could earn. Which is ofcourse totaly not the case. The people I know that edit at BOTW certainly won’t do it for the money.
As far as I know there is no hostility from DMOZ or its higher level editors towards BOTW.
shadow575 said
Let me clarify that I don’t feel that my honesty about editing in both places has been disrespected. I have gotten plenty of positive messages from the top of DMOZ down. Its just the second hand and third hand comments that make one feel uncomfortable.
I think there is a lot of active imaginations on both sides. Basically I think people see issues where none exist. The point is don’t make a mountain out of an ant hill. Its a non issue, its no more an issue than JoeAnt, Wikipedia or any other project someone chooses to dedicate time too. So long as all the respective rules and guidelines are followed, there shouldn’t be a problem IMO.
Rob Jones said
Thanks PV, good points, and raises an issue worth clearing up. There are multiple teams at BOTW. Ours doesn’t handle pay-for-review submissions, we do pretty much what we did at Dmoz, build a fully functional directory, plus we build the Blog Directory. BOTW’s investment to enhance the directory is in the long run a win for us, for them, the surfers, and their clients. It is a well planned business model.
Are our guys there for the money?
]
A few of our guys are volunteers by choice, but most do receive a monthly check based on their work. Nobody’s gonna become the next Bill Gates, but it pays well. BOTW’s generous in terms of rewarding quality editors, and Dmoz has trained some of the best out there. So far this month our tiny band has added over 16,000 sites in addition to doing quality control and structural work. [Love to take credit, but I'm just as useless as always.
The ideal job is to be paid something you’d do for pleasure anyway. In our case, this is an ideal job.
shadow575 said
Well said Rob, as always.
Gunner said
As one who had my foot on both camps, and who recently resigned from the ODP, let me state without reservation that my being active in BoTW did not cause me to resign from the ODP. No more so than my association with JoeAnt or any other directories that I have contributed to. I am, after all, a directory whore.
I left ODP because over the last year I have come to believe that my contribution were no longer appreciated. Not by the editing community — the ODP editing community is the best — but by the directory owners. I believe that AOL is acting in bad faith with regards to the directory and I felt as if my efforts were being exploited. AOL taketh much from the editing community, and giveth very little back in return (in terms of working systems, AOL developed tools, timely updates/repairs and new development).
I know that I have mad a serious effort not to refer to the ODP in negative terms within the BoTW internal forums, and I know that others are doing the same. About the worst that must of us call it is TOD (The Other Directory).
Frank
Former ODP editor spectregunner
Current BoTW editor gunner
Alucard said
Shadow, in any organization there are going to be those that either deliberately or inadvertently start a “whispering campaign” – you have to let that flow off your back. Motives for doing so will be different, but often they are out of lack of knowledge about what is truly going on.
I have said some slightly disparaging things about the ODP in my time, but those were due to my own frustrations and disappointment at the style of the ODP and how it is managed. I do NOT believe that the ODP is “evil” in any way, shape or form. Criticizing how something is run is far from labeling it as evil. I am at BOTW (although not currently active) and not at the ODP simply because the atmosphere there suits my working style better, not because I believe that one is inherently better than the other. I am certainly not doing it for the money – I have other ways to earn money on the internet than bring me more than I can get at BOTW.
The fact that BOTW offers a different management style and editing “feel” than the ODP does not make either one “better” or “worse” in a global sense. I, personally, got frustrated by the environment at the ODP, others are quite content with it. Different styles for different folks. Since this *is* a hobby, we should be doing something that we enjoy and if one place doesn’t give you that enjoyment, maybe it’s best to move on, rather than beating your head against a metaphorical wall. If you are comfortable in both places, then it should be your prerogative to do that.
Bottom line, Shadow, is do what you feel you want to do, and ignore what other people think unless they are willing to say it to your face…. and if you find a way of doing that, please let me know how
I wish you luck.